Post from Will on actions... From: John Stowman To: Alex Koponen X-XS4ALL-DNSBL-Checked: mxdrop109.xs4all.nl checked 74.125.92.146 against DNS blacklists Cc: pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl Subject: Re: [pnpgm] ships and archers The tonnage of Roman merchant ships In order to satisfy the various requirements of commerce, ship tonnages were quite variable. According to written sources, ships with a capacity of 10,000 modii of grain (that is, about 70 metric tonnes) constituted the lower end of vessels whose tonnage was considered sufficient to be used for Rome�s food supply and thus to benefit from government concessions. These were the smallest among the medium-tonnage ships. They must have constituted the majority of vessels utilised in commerce, with a capacity which could easily exceed 100 tons, such as the 3,000-amphora (150-tonne) vessels mentioned in written sources, and as also confirmed by numerous underwater discoveries. However, there were also ships with higher tonnage capacity. The hull of the Madrague de Giens shipwreck in France (1st century B.C.) originally measured 40 metres in length and had a capacity of 400 tonnes. In this case we have confirmation of ancient written sources which considered the muriophorio -- the �10,000-amphora carriers� (500 tonnes) utilised at the end of the Republic or the beginning of the Roman empire -- to have been the largest ships of their time, and which set the threshold of these vessels at 50,000 modii (330 tonnes). We must wait until the sixteenth century before we see vessels of similar tonnages plying the waters of the Mediterranean again. And yet there were even larger ships! During the Hellenistic period Hiero II of Syracuse had the "Syracusia" constructed for the transport of grain. Due to its enormous dimensions, it could not be admitted at any port except Alexandria (in Egypt), where it was sent as a gift to Ptolemy III. Not to mention Caligula�s obelisk-carrier (1,300 tonnes), which was utilised, after having been sunk, to construct the lighthouse at the port of Claudius, or even the "Isis", which Lucian writes about, which must have reached 1,200 tonnes. In this last case, the "Isis" was not a vessel intended for any particular purpose, like the two colossal ships found in Nemi Lake designed as floating palaces and measuring over 70 metres in length; it was merely one of the numerous granary ships of Alexandria�s regular fleet. While the Trireme was the norm for warships that dose not mean that there cant be merchant ships of larger size On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Alex Koponen wrote: My understanding of the ships of the Perilous Lands is that they are late bronze age/early iron age designs, with the trireme being the latest greatest design. Basically these designs are too small to put men up top to shoot from bows. Some designs might have protected areas on the bow and stern to give some cover for the fighting men. It takes a large ship to need masts thick enough to mount a crows nest big enough to be a shooting platform. Frankly I don't think the technology of the Perilous Lands is to that point.    Alex _______________________________________________ pnpgm mailing list pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnpgm _______________________________________________ pnpgm mailing list pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnpgmDKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=t6uSUDU23FvS8pLS/CXcn3zmuVeY8x6WN20wSzRXj10=; b=ETXIM8KQ5va0Xw7cxG5JZdUXWlV9woE8kBMuR5ntgdLDAzQaQlRzbQt/qYib3JHv5c NHvutzYbcGkcC+vRcZrwRXKEPIE2YbzbirdQMZ7rgoYf3UoW4MGCQA1LY0VTxTr9+zN3 fI4O0tX+hCusBcQhwjJL7jSOrdtN9pSuc4Eqo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=sAdGHow9TtTNWj6hX2oXXSxFacrB+JkoZv1q+cW5mTwdcpHeJL4+5a/v+sedum4+Dd 4Q9oLkz4PyRpsPzNDAoRUqC47yqMbd4mTe/tAao8n5qhfma597m/UvLo5vU5LdyVWkTQ AIvb/M498IfwNLYa7tfww1SHGWSvdYsCTu0I4= Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:37:46 -0800 From: John Stowman To: Alex Koponen X-XS4ALL-DNSBL-Checked: mxdrop102.xs4all.nl checked 74.125.92.147 against DNS blacklists X-CNFS-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=oW_wBiA9AAAA:8 a=xOd6jRPJAAAA:8 a=Nqm1xqy936IKt45GigcA:9 a=yBaX65ecJBbhD5xMLxEA:7 a=6vnFGMtyn53YKIsgas7EA4TlTyMA:4 a=jadAhfg89zUA:10 a=3GbmggnxAAAA:8 a=o8B9LyRFlXnYocsE-_EA:9 a=dns4xqI6hW-i0Kdy01AA:7 a=trz1_kKCl3vMxxuZ19lurbVQWOIA:4 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-XS4ALL-Spam-Score: 0.0 () HTML_MESSAGE, SPF_PASS X-XS4ALL-Spam: NO Cc: pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl Subject: Re: [pnpgm] ships and archers X-BeenThere: pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 List-Id: PBeM Campaign run by Scott Adams List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: pnpgm-bounces@abroere.xs4all.nl History The first records of junks can be found in references dating to the Han Dynasty (220 BC-200 AD). [edit] 2nd century junks (Han Dynasty) The 3rd century book "Strange Things of the South" («n¦{²§ª«§Ó) by Wan Chen (¸U¾_) describes junks capable of carrying 700 people together with 260 tons of cargo ("more than 10,000 "±Ø"). He explains the ship's design as follows: The four sails do not face directly forward, but are set obliquely, and so arranged that they can all be fixed in the same direction, to receive the wind and to spill it. Those sails which are behind the most windward one receiving the pressure of the wind, throw it from one to the other, so that they all profit from its force. If it is violent, (the sailors) diminish or augment the surface of the sails according to the conditions. This oblique rig, which permits the sails to receive from one another the breath of the wind, obviates the anxiety attendant upon having high masts. Thus these ships sail without avoiding strong winds and dashing waves, by the aid of which they can make great speed —Wa Chen, [7] A 260 AD book by Kang Tai (±d®õ) also described ships with seven masts, traveling as far as Syria. Detail of a ship on Along the River During Qingming Festival, by Zhang Zeduan (1085–1145). [edit] 10th-13th century junks (Song Dynasty) The great trading dynasty of the Song employed junks extensively. The naval strength of the Song, both mercantile and military, became the backbone of the naval power of the following Yuan dynasty. In particular the Mongol invasions of Japan (1274-1284), as well as the Mongol invasion of Java essentially relied on recently acquired Song naval capabilities. The ship to the wright's dimensions are 360 feet (110 m) by 110 feet (34 m) by 120 feet (37 m) Facts About The Maryland Dove Captain: Will Gates Physical Dimensions: Length Overall: 76 feet. Length on Deck: 56 feet. Length at Waterline: 51 feet. Beam: Overall 17 feet. Draft: 7 feet. Displacement: 42 tons. Height of Main Mast: 64 feet. Sail Area (approximate): 1,965 sq. ft. For comparison the first ship that I referenced earlier (the Dove) and again above which had masts large enough to put people in the top of is less than a 10th of the size of the several of the Roman and Chinese ships in fact the 2nd century junks above could have carried 6 of these as cargo. More importantly the Blue Moon is 72 feet long and can carry 80 tons of cargo so it is also substantially larger than the Dove. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Alex Koponen wrote: My understanding of the ships of the Perilous Lands is that they are late bronze age/early iron age designs, with the trireme being the latest greatest design. Basically these designs are too small to put men up top to shoot from bows. Some designs might have protected areas on the bow and stern to give some cover for the fighting men. It takes a large ship to need masts thick enough to mount a crows nest big enough to be a shooting platform. Frankly I don't think the technology of the Perilous Lands is to that point. Alex _______________________________________________ pnpgm mailing list pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnpgm _______________________________________________ pnpgm mailing list pnpgm@abroere.xs4all.nl http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnpgm